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Family Spring Break to Lake Tahoe Trip Report (Plus Reno and Seattle)

Discussion in 'Non-Vegas Trip Reports' started by JFO, May 2, 2019.

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  1. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    My Trip Report

    OK, this trip report has the same characters from our trip last Summer to Vegas:

    https://vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?threads/everything-i-never-wanted-to-do-in-vegas-family-trip-report.155321/

    Since then, I had taken this solo trip to Vegas where I made Caesars Diamond:

    https://www.vegasmessageboard.com/forums/index.php?threads/trip-report-without-taking-the-family-this-time….157653/

    And my wife also made Caesars Diamond on a hotel status match with her job. We didn't actually reach Lake Tahoe until the 3rd day of our trip. But I am going to still go through the first two days and how all this happened. There isn't a whole lot of casino info reported this TR, but if you are more interested in casino rants, jump to the end of day 3 whenever I get it posted in this thread.

    How did we decide on Lake Tahoe for Spring Break?

    We were originally planning to take our Spring Break trip to the Atlantis in the Bahamas using the Caesars Diamond promotion. However, just when we thought we had everything figured out for that trip, we called the special CET number to book the hotel, and found out the promo was blacked out through Spring Break week. This was a bummer because we haven't taken a good Spring Break trip in several years and we were all in agreement to try to pull this off for this year. So we had a few discussions, we decided to put off Atlantis until June when it wouldn’t be blacked out, and we would go to Lake Tahoe for Spring Break.

    How did we end up with a first day in Seattle?

    OK, this gets more complicated... We have a lot of reward miles, but trying to find award seats close to Spring Break is extremely difficult. Most airlines will choose just a couple flights per day with just a few "saver" award seats per flight, so for good flights around Spring Break week they need to be claimed early. There was absolutely nothing left going to Reno, but there were some connecting flights into Sacramento. The latest one we could find was on American Airlines, leaving very late Thursday night (so the kids would only miss one day of school), landing in Seattle past midnight, and then the connection was on Alaska Airlines Friday morning, which would have left us 1 AM to 6 AM in the SeaTac Airport. Then after some research on things we could do in Seattle, we later found a very inexpensive Alaska Airlines Flight Seattle to Sacramento for Saturday morning, and we decided to book that flight instead. Then when we asked American if they could cancel our Alaska flight for Friday morning, American did something very nice and just gave us that connection with about a 32 hour layover in Seattle, with no extra charge. Airlines sometimes have the discretion to do nice things, this was very and we took it. YMMV.

    Seattle City Pass: The Seattle City Pass would raise its price from $89 per person to $99 per person on March 1st, but we bought ours just before the price went up. It is good for 2 weeks, but our plan was to do everything we could on the pass all in one day.

    Hyatt House Downtown Seattle: With my Chase Hyatt Visa Card, I get a free night up to a Cat 4 hotel, and we used it for this hotel. The Seattle Light Rail would be closed when we arrived after midnight, so we took a Lyft from the airport which ran about $25+tip for the 4 of us. We got an 8th floor (top floor) premium room right outside and facing the space needle, although it didn't feel so high next looking at the Space Needle out our window:

    SpaceNeedle.jpeg

    This was taken in the morning:

    SpaceNeedle2.jpg

    I think this was the first eco-friendly hotel room we have ever had, where we need to keep a room key in a special slot near the dooe or the lights in the bathroom will randomly turn off even when someone is in there. We slept very well in this room. I will also say that breakfast here was well above average for a free hotel breakfast. And after we checked out of our room, the front desk locked our luggage for us, while we would explore the city.

    Seattle Museum of Pop Culture (MoPOP): (Usually $34 per person, free on Seattle City Pass.) This museum was short walking distance from our hotel, and we arrived just as they opened at 10:00 AM. The museum had tribute exhibits to Jimi Hendricks and Nirvana, bands I like but my wife and kids don't care for. But there were lots of science fiction exhibits, as well as a sound lab that they all enjoyed. They had just closed a Marvel exhibit, but that’s ok, we had plenty of Marvel exhibits last summer in Vegas. We spent about 90 minutes here, as we would only be in town one day.

    Side note: As we were finishing the museum, our daughter received a text from one of her friends still at school for the last day before spring break. She learned she beat out 11 other students in her Theater class for the role of Scarecrow in their spring Wizard of Oz play. She was very excited and we were very proud of her. And what a perfect place to get the news also…. The Emerald City!

    Space Needle: Right outside the MoPop was the space needle (normally $32.50 per person per trip to the top, Seattle City Pass comes with 2 free trips.) This was very similar to the Stratosphere in Las Vegas, except instead of viewing Las Vegas we are viewing Seattle, and instead of having been built in 1992, this one was built in 1961. There are several levels at the top, with lots of renovation going on. At the lower most level, they were installing a glass floor with some of it already opened. Several of my family members were a little nervous with it being brand new. I said we could help test it buy jumping on it a little and they all quickly cleared to the center of the tower to the non-transparent ground.

    Pikes Place Market: We were getting hungry, so we went back to the Hyatt Place where they had a free shuttle to this market. The shuttle dropped us off at an ice cream parlor just up the hill from the market. Walking into the market, all of the counter service restaurants smelled pretty darn good, I don't think anyone can go wrong anywhere here. We decided we wanted table service with a waterfront view, ultimately deciding on The Athenian, with Lowell's coming in a very close second. Here are some photos of what we got:

    Meal1.jpg Meal2.jpg Meal3.jpg Meal4.jpg

    Argosy Harbor Cruise: (Normally $31 per person, free with Seattle City Pass.) After Lunch we took a short walk to the dock, and our timing was pretty good. It was about 2:00 when we arrived, and the next cruise was scheduled for 2:30 with the previous cruise just pulling in to disembark. So we picked up our boarding passes and we were in line ready to get on as soon as the last passenger got off. Very good bar service on the ship. This narrated 60 minute tour of the bay had really nice views of the Seattle Skyline and surrounding mountain ranges, and loads of interesting historical information.

    Seattle Aquarium: (Normally $29.95 per person, free with pass). The kids were a little skeptical about going to an aquarium, but this was only about 3 minute walk from the pier. It was almost 4:00 PM and the aquarium would close at 5:00 PM, and it was paid for it. We got their just before 4:00 PM to see a lot of families and children surrounding the octopus tank for the 4:00 PM scheduled "octopus feeding." We all decided we had to see this, and it was pretty cool seeing those big squids actually moving around. The aquarium was a pretty fast walk through for us, but there was plenty interesting to see here.

    On the way back to the shuttle stop, we passed the first Starbucks. It had a line that went out the door about 20 minutes long and it was late in the day. No we didn't stop here.

    Cupcake Royale Handmade Ice Cream: We returned to the spot the Hyatt shuttle dropped us off, but decided to stop for a quick snack before calling them to pick us up. Had to try the Washington Hazelnut Brittle with Salted Ganache:

    Ice_Cream.jpg

    Chihuly Garden and Glass Museum: (Normally $26 per person, free with pass.) This museum was near the space needle and our hotel. A very artsy museum of glass sculptures made to look like random flowers. I would probably never pay for something like this, but it was a neat stop. Some art lovers might spend several hours here. We walked through it in about 10-15 minutes.

    Seattle Light Rail: We decided not to take our second trip up the space needle, walked back to the Hyatt, picked up our luggage, tried some local beers at the bar, and the hotel gave us a free shuttle to the light rail station. I remember there was an elevator down to the rail area that had a sign in large letters not to use the elevator until we purchased tickets. So we purchased rail tickets to the airport at $3 each, and then took the elevator down to the tracks, but no one ever collected our tickets... Maybe they were remodeling the station at the time, but it appeared they use the honor system with respect to purchasing tickets or not.

    SeaTac Airport Ramada Inn: So the light rail took us all the way to the airport, then we had to call this hotel to have them send a shuttle to get us. The place was pretty dumpy even for an airport hotel, but for 4000 UR points, the room was at least clean, and would do as a place to stay to catch an early flight. We didn’t care to try the hotel restaurant, and with nothing in walking distance, we just ordered pizza delivery to eat in the room. As soon as we got to the room, the girl pulled her script book and a highlighter out of her backpack and went to highlighting her lines.

    Thanks to all of you who read through the first day. I had some comments asking what our non-casino vacations are like, and this day seemed worth reporting. We will head to Nevada for Day 2 which I will try to get out soon.
     
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  2. spicole

    spicole No shirt, no shoes... NO DICE!

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    The Museum of Pop Culture was great! I liked the giant video screen with the videos... the Sky Church?!? The sci-fi exhibits were good too.

    Thanks for the great report.
     
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  3. Sonya

    Sonya Queen of VMB

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    That's quite a whirlwind tour of my little burb. I love that on Valentine's Day, they have a special tour with a romantic octopus viewing. They let the male and female tanks join together for some OctoPorn. :)

    I haven't been to every place in the market yet, but so far I've found this to be true. One of my favorite games is to wander over there hungry and let my nose take me to something yummy.

    I'm looking forward to the Nevada part now. :)
     
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  4. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    I thought there might be a few folks on this board from Seattle, but I had no idea that was your home! I was really glad we could extend our connection to a full day layover. We probably would have never chosen Seattle as a Spring Break destination, but it was really nice getting to spend a full day here to see the place.

    Yeah, that's a thing about aquarium/zoos with older animals, reptiles, and fish. A lot of them don't do a whole lot unless you can catch them during feeding, pooping, or romantic encounters.... : - /
     
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  5. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    DAY 2

    Alaska Airlines: So the entire Seattle adventure was just a layover in our journey. We had an early connection was with Alaska Airlines, and the one good thing the hotel did was got us to the airport early. I wasn’t too concerned in the morning when I couldn’t retrieve our boarding passes on my AA app, as I figured that would resolve on its own when we got to the airport. But when we showed up at the Alaska kiosk, they didn’t show we had any connection, so we got in line, and the agents saw the same thing, so wouldn’t check our luggage. We went to the American desk and they showed we most certainly had an Alaska connection. Trying to get the two airlines to talk to each other was a disaster, and caused us to miss our first flight and get held 3 hours until the next flight. When it was too late for us to make our initial scheduled flight, the Alaska attendant I was working with was so rude my wife had to drag me away from her because I was pretty fumed. But we had strong support from American Airlines that they thought they had done everything right setting up this ticket for us, and we found another Alaska attendant who was very nice and helped us work out whatever was set incorrectly between them and American. I can’t complain, because we did get this long layover for free.

    Priceline / Sacramento Hertz Rental Car: Planning for the trip we were looking for a mid-sized SUV and hoping for a 4WD/AWD. While shopping for rental cars, I got a teaser offer from Priceline for a mid-sized SUV for 5 days for $122. We can’t use UR points for Priceline, but the cash price still looked so good I bit on it. Priceline is non-refundable and we wouldn’t know who the company was until I entered my credit card information and bought it, but I was relieved when it came up as Hertz. I am not sure Hertz is any better than the other major companies, but they sure bid a lot to get the closest parking lots to the airports. The shuttle service was good, and we learned we got this AWD Nissan Rogue:

    Rogue.jpg

    Donner Memorial State Park: It is about a 2 hour drive from Sacramento to Reno. It was around 60 in Sacramento, but as soon as we hit the mountains we started seeing LOTS of snow, and in parts of the highway it was coming down hard. My wife and kids haven’t grown up around snow, so they were taking lots of pictures and videos and sending to friends, while I was just keeping both hands on the wheel. The SUV we got was sure gripping the road well, but I was being plenty cautious. This state park was one of our planned stops for our drive to Reno, where they preserved the site where the Donner expedition of the 1840s got trapped due to snow, and legend has it that the pioneers resorted to cannibalism to survive. Due to missing our initial flight and snowy roads, we didn’t get here until just before 5:00 PM, and the museum would close right at 5:00 PM. The museum attendants were very nice to let us in for free as long as we promised to leave by 5, so we just rushed through this museum.

    Truckee, CA: We drove through this historical town, but decided we couldn’t find anywhere here anyone wanted to stop at. We were getting hungry and wanted to eat in Reno, so after the drive through we got back on the highway to Reno.

    Courtyard by Marriott, Reno Downtown Riverfront: When we arrived here, I could see I made a nice old mess of our washed clean 2019 rental car:

    Rogue2.jpg

    If it was anything except a rental I would have certainly given it a wash. We decided on this Marriott because I don’t have status at any of the hotels, and it was a Saturday and casinos always jump their hotel rates on Weekends. I had a free Cat 4 night stay with my Marriott Rewards Visa that was near expiration, so this made a pretty good use. The Marriott Rewards and Starwood Preferred Guest programs just completed their merger earlier this year, and their new program took on the name Bonvoy. Haven’t yet formed an opinion of the new program, but this turned out to be a very nice room, and as an added bonus a view of the Truckee River:

    Creek.jpg

    Purple Parrot at the Atlantis Casino and Resort Reno: While the American Casino Guide (ACG) has tons of food coupons for Las Vegas, it only has 2 for Reno, at Harrahs and Atlantis. However, for the Atlantis, the coupons are no good on weekends, and we were planning to save our Harrahs coupons for Sunday Champagne Brunch. However, this restaurant had an interesting name for a casual dining spot so we decided to check it out. When we arrived, the casino parking lot was completely full and we had to park in an adjacent business lot where others were parking. It appeared to be a nice casino to walk through. I would sign up with the players club to see if I could get anything as a new signup. I got $5 free play, and an opportunity to earn a free meal if I earned 20 points, but they would not give me any clue as to how their point system worked, and I couldn’t find anything on the internet either. We decided just to head straight to dinner because we were hungry. The restaurant was nice, and the service was very friendly, but otherwise really nothing that spectacular about this place.

    Atlantis Casino Reno: After dinner, the family would let me check out the casino for a bit. The ACG has a $5 matchplay coupon, which seems kind of cheap for a casino where table minimums are $10, but still certainly worth playing. I decided I would see if I could figure out on my own what it takes to earn a slot club point here, by running $100 through video blackjack. Despite the crappy even money on naturals which is standard for VBJ, the machines had some better rules allowing, surrender, splits, and double down. But regardless, $100 through got me 0 slot club points. I decided just to take about $35 profit and get my family out of this place.

    Reno: Our plan for the rest of the evening was just to drive through Reno and see if we find anything we might want to do. However, the main street through Reno (Virginia Street) had lots of construction pushing traffic off to side roads, and the rest of the family wanted to go back to the hotel, so we just returned to the hotel and crashed for the night.

    END OF DAY 2

    Thanks agin for reading. So I guess this was just a travel day. Day 3 we head to Tahoe with a few more travel stops, and I will try to get it out soon.
     
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  6. tringlomane

    tringlomane STP Addicted Beer Snob

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    Good stuff so far!
     
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  7. Richard Alpert

    Richard Alpert LOST

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    Quite a nice read here!
    I'm looking forward to the next episode! :D

    RICHARD
     
    The Alperts Take Polo Towers!
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  8. NittyOne

    NittyOne High-Roller

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    Look forward to hearing about day three and Lake Tahoe and Reno.
     
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  9. gambler

    gambler VIP Whale

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    Looking forward to hearing more too!

    Congrats to your daughter. She must have been thrilled:woohoo: :clap:
     
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  10. kathiemc23

    kathiemc23 Low-Roller

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    I recently booked a trip that is Vegas - Lake Tahoe - Vegas in July. I've never been to Lake Tahoe so I'm really looking forward to reading about the rest of your trip! You just made me pull out my ACG to see what I could use on my trip ;)
     
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  11. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    Thanks!!!! :)

    She actually just had her performances last weekend, and the week prior to her performance was much busier than expected, as my wife wanted to get our house to a level of clean it hasn't seen in a long, long time in preparation for family members staying over.

    Then this past week after her performance was packed make-up games from rain-outs over this past Spring season. But I think we are finally getting to the point where things are slowing down and I can get this TR finished up...
     
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  12. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    A lot more in Vegas than Reno/Tahoe!!!!! :)
     
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  13. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    DAY 3

    Harrahs Reno: As Marriott Gold members, we got a 2:00 PM checkout which we wouldn’t need, but we still slept in after some exhausting travel days. The Harrahs Reno was just 2 blocks down 2nd Street from our hotel, so we decided to just walk there for brunch. We passed Reno's minor league ballpark which was a pretty site. The casino has two buildings; we entered the east building into the east casino. While the casino was completely empty, it still smelled like an ash tray, very consistent with reviews of this place. We walked through the casino, seeing a slot machine area with a 1980s video game theme which I thought was very sad. I don’t expect I will ever play here. We did pick up my wife’s diamond card that she matched status to in early January.

    Harrahs Reno Carvings Buffet: Thankfully after we went up the escalator to the restaurant area between the towers, the air was a lot cleaner. My wife and I both had buy-one-get-one-free buffet coupons from ACG, which seemed like a good deal, until we overheard the standard deal for locals is half-off. Regardless, the Sunday Champagne Brunch Buffet regular price was $21 each, so we were able to feed all 4 of us for $42 with the coupons which isn’t so bad. To make sure we didn’t have any trouble with the cashier and children, we asked our kids to hang back while we went to the diamond line to use our 2 coupons to get 4 passes, and then called our children after we got our 4 passes and the host was ready to take us to our table. I still remember as we walked in, my daughter putting her arms up in the air excited when she saw their sushi station. I thought this was a fine buffet for a Sunday Brunch, I would say it ranks about the same as Vegas B-Conned buffets which I also think are fine.

    Reno Ski Clothing Shopping: This was one of my big screw ups for this trip. We didn’t buy a lot of outdoor clothes for skiing ahead of the trip, as I assumed they would be year round at local retailers and sporting goods stores up here, so we should be able to find some good deals locally. Well, after shopping several places including Walmart, Big 5, and Champs, we discovered this was not the case at all... All the stores were clearing all out winter/skiing for summer/swimming like the rest of the country. So after burning a few hours shopping, we decided to just press on towards Tahoe.

    Virginia City: This was another planned stop that would add about an hour driving towards Tahoe. A mining town from the 19th century converted to a very touristy town. Driving up the mountain to this city was another both-hands-on-the-wheel, both-eyes-on-the-road adventure (not that I don’t always drive this way…)

    The Way it Was Museum, Virginia City: When we got to the city at the top of the mountain, our first stop would be this little museum. While just a small museum, it was packed with artifacts from the 19th century, and I thought well worth the $4 per person admission. A few exhibits posted on the wall I thought interesting enough to share:

    01_Cheating.jpg

    02_FifthAce.jpg


    03_Gun1.jpg
    06_Gun3.jpg
    07_Gun9_R.jpg

    There is a lot more here....

    Virginia City Trolley: We walked here next, and this 20 minute narrated tour of the town was also enjoyable and a good value for $5/person.

    We would then walk around Main Street for a bit. There were interesting places with names like the Bucket of Blood Saloon, the Delta Saloon with the Old Globe and Suicide table, the Silver Queen, the Brass Rail Saloon. But we were just stopping through the town.

    There is also a closed and locked up Mark Twain Museum in Virginia City. We were told it was sold a couple years ago to new owners, and then the new owners just disappeared without a word or trace. This is kind of sad, as this was the city where Samuel Clemens first used the name Mark Twain, and thus the city also became also known as the birthplace of Mark Twain.

    Chocolate Nugget Candy Factory: Driving down the mountainside towards Tahoe, a sign like this is clearly going to be a tourist magnet:

    09_Choc.jpg

    And we decided to make an extra stop. There were lots of handmade candies at reasonable prices, and very friendly people working here.

    Carson City: I believe this is the only state capital in the 50 states that has absolutely nothing to do, and is proud of that, as well as proud of being our country’s smallest state capital. No, we didn’t stop here; we just drove through it, but thought it was worth a mention.

    Harrahs Lake Tahoe: I was able to get 3 free weeknights with no resort fees using the CET calendar. My diamond status got me free valet parking, and we used it when we arrived. We could also check in inside the “plush room” reserved for diamond/7-star members, where we were offered us $30 in hotel credits for skipping daily room cleanings during our stay. We got one of the new remodeled rooms. All of the rooms here have 2 full bathrooms with separate showers which was a nice extra.

    Maya’s Mexican Grill: We could have walked to this little family owned restaurant, but we drove. I thought I took a photo of the menu, but can’t find it. It is a cash only restaurant, but the prices were very reasonable, the portions were pretty large, and the service was very friendly. We left a lot of food behind on the table, so my only advice for this place would be unless you are very hungry, just split some of the plates.

    Harrahs Casino: We returned to the hotel. The wife and kids were ready to check out the arcade, and I would hit the casino and put in some play towards free nights. This casino has 9/6 jacks for full credits, which would be my game of choice. I started playing 8 simultaneous hands at quarters ($10/deal at full credits.) The game was inside the high limit room, although that night the high limit room was sharing CWs with the table games on the regular floor, so CW service was really slow. I think this was my only hand of interest:

    10_Meh.jpg


    The new CET drink policy: Both of our kids wanted Shirley Temples, so my wife and I decided we would go check out the Highlander Bar on the top floor, and use our diamond card to pick up drinks. This top floor bar was very nice, as was the view of the lake and mountains. We asked the bartender if we could get free drinks with our diamond cards, but the bartender apologized, telling us there was a policy change, and now Diamond/7-stars members could only get free drinks downstairs. (This wasn’t completely true; in fact Diamond/7-stars members can no longer get free drinks at any CET VP bars if they are not playing.) However, after we were told this, a 7-stars lady who was sitting at the bar drinking without playing asked if she had to pay for all the drinks she had, and when she was told she would, she threw a 7-star tantrum and demanded to see a manager… A manager came over right away, and she started fighting him over the new policy. I actually thought it was entertaining and wanted to see how it would play out, but I was with my wife, and we needed to head down the elevator to get our kids their drinks, so we left.

    We get down to the casino level, hit the first VP bar inside the casino, and the bartender clarifies free drinks are only for players now. We just about put in our cards into the bartops, and then I decided it made no sense to trigger a gambling day for my wife just to get the kids some drinks, so we would take a short walk to the Diamond/7-stars room to have a 2nd card made for myself that she could use. As soon as we walked in, there was the 7-star lady from upstairs (this time with her husband) fighting with a whole bunch of suits over the policy change. I got my 2nd card made, and had to leave the fight again. As soon as we inserted our cards, the bartender brought two large glasses of non-alcoholic Shirley Temples before we could even get our money into the machines, and we just gave her a tip and took the drinks to our kids (without playing) who really enjoyed them. By the way, at present it only takes $1.25 of coin-in (1 deal of quarters full-coin) to trigger the green light for free drinks at all the VP bars here.

    END OF DAY 3

    Thanks again for reading. Things have settled down around here so I am hoping to get the rest of this report out soon. As always, please feel free to post any questions, comments, etc..
     
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  14. booker

    booker VIP Whale

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    Ah, Seattle & Reno. I was raised near downtown and worked there in my teens. I even had a stint at Pike Place Market. If any remember the old 211 Union, pool hall, bar, restaurant and card room, I washed dishes the and worked my way up to server & cook. I've used a 25¢ 211 poker chip as a card protector.
     
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  15. NittyOne

    NittyOne High-Roller

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    Very interesting, thanks for the update.
     
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  16. azlefty

    azlefty VIP Whale

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    No visit to the peppermill? Always a fun casino to visit.
    Or, next time in Reno, try the Western village casino in Sparks. It's a miniature peppermill with lower prices and some good restaurants.

    Did you get to lake Tahoe?

    There are also several good Basque restaurants in the area. There's one in Reno and several in the towns of Minden etc.
     
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  17. julia

    julia (was miss_sonja)

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    I’ve been considering a drive to Reno/Tahoe with the kids. We’re from Seattle area so fun to read your Seattle adventure.
     
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  18. luckylinda

    luckylinda High-Roller

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    Lots of great information about Seattle I was exhausted just reading it. Looking forward to the rest. Great report!
     
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  19. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

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    Trips to Las Vegas:
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    Oops, the reason I couldn't find photos of the Maya Grill Menu was because they let us take one home with us, so I didn't take any photos when I was there, and I just stumbled over it.... Here is their latest menu... Both the combo plates and the nachos could feed two people if they aren't that hungry...

    11_Maya1.jpg 12_Maya2.jpg
     
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  20. JFO

    JFO Low-Roller

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Trips to Las Vegas:
    20
    No, but Peppermill would have been high on our list if I could convince the family to go to another casino. In fact when deciding on a place to eat it was highly considered. I have heard such good things about the place if I am ever in Reno again I will definitely have to check it out.

    Yes! After we were done in Virginia City, we went down the one mountainside thru Carson City, then up the other mountainside to South Lake Tahoe / Stateline NV, where we stayed at the Harrahs Lake Tahoe for 3 additional nights!

    We have never eaten Basque before (nor heard of it) but after looking it up we may just have to try it sometime!
     
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